Wow, that's a sweeping statement! Care to prove me wrong?
The Flash developers don’t know the web. article by Aral Balkan, unless otherwise expressly stated, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 2.0 UK: England License.
Here's a quick quiz:
- Do you know what a mashup is?
- Have you ever created a mashup?
- Do you know CSS?
- Do you use webmail?
- How many social networking sites are you on?
- How many web applications do you use on a daily basis?
- Do you subscribe to RSS feeds?
- Do you use SWF Object or UFO?
- If you answered yes to the question above, do you know why you use SWF Object or UFO?
- Do you blog?
OK, to get your score, add +1 point for every "yes". For the "how many" questions, just add the number you came up with. And then leave your score in the comments, along with whether you're a Flash developer or an HTML/JavaScript/Ajax developer. I look forward to seeing the results!
So where did all this come from?
Initially, it came with a realization a few years ago that I didn't really know the web. This was a direct consequence of my not actually using the web for anything other than publishing my Flash applications. All right, I've been blogging since time eternal but apart from that, until relatively recently, I hadn't been using many web applications on a daily basis. Today, I do all my email through Google Mail (which has its limitations, believe me, but which I mostly enjoy), use Google Docs, Twitter like a parakeet, check for events on Upcoming, post my photos to Flickr and even visit Facebook quite regularly (and, no, I still haven't warmed up to LinkedIn but at least I respond to my friend requests somewhat promptly these days!)
So I've started using the web -- have you? And how are you supposed to know something if you don't use it?
It sometimes feels like the Flash community isn't on top of the changes that are taking place in the greater web. It took months for Flashers to start adding themselves to Twitter, for example (and I wasn't a very early adopter myself!) It's almost as if we're a little too preoccupied with our own little (ok, growing) world to see what else is happening around us. This is, admittedly, an easy enough position to find yourself in given how fast the Flash platform is currently expanding. However, excuses aside, we have a lot to learn from non-Flash developers and it's a good idea to keep a finger on the pulse of the greater web.
Just this week, at the Flash Brighton meeting, I asked a room of Flash developers and designers how many of them had created a mashup. The number of hands raised was the sum total of none.
If nothing else, this strengthens my belief that working with data in Flash has to be made easier. I know that SWX is going to play an important role in lowering the barrier of entry to creating data-driven Flash applications in general and mashups in particular. To get more Flash developers to experiment with building mashups, I will be adding SWX APIs of popular web services (e.g., Flickr, etc.) to the official SWX gateway on swxformat.org. The first of these is the SWX Twitter API.
The SWX Twitter API makes it easy for Flash developers to create Twitter mashups. You can play with the API methods in the online Service Browser to get a feel for it before you even start building your Flash application. Also see this more detailed post on the SWX Twitter API that I blogged earlier.
The next release of SWX is also going to have a new high-level ActionScript API (this is already functional in SVN if you want to check out the latest trunk. Look at the samples that have _full_api at the ends of their names for usage examples).
The high-level ActionScript API makes it even easier to build Flash apps with SWX by providing a very easy interface for handling loading, returned results, displaying progress and handing timeouts.
I do hope that more Flash developers foray beyond the borders of the Flash world and start both using and remixing the web. I strongly encourage you to start playing with APIs and creating mashups. There's a wealth of data out there that you can remix, visualize and otherwise have fun with.
Ready to broaden your horizons? Here are a few suggestions to start you off:
- Add a few non-Flash bloggers to your RSS feed. I can personally recommend my friends Jeremy Keith, Andy Budd, Mike Davies, Tom Morris, Thomas Vanderwal, Drew Mclellan, Christian Heilman, Molly Holzschlag, Richard Rutter. I know I've learned heaps from all of them and you can too! Also follow those rare Flashers like Mario Klingemann whose work spans the interest areas of both camps.
- Get involved! Attend free events like Hack Day and BarCamp, WSG meetings (WSG London meetings), . If there isn't one in your area, organize one!
- Attend non-Flash conferences like d.construct and SXSW.
There are many non-Flash conferences out there where you will find open-minded non-Flashers to welcome you. You will probably encounter prejudices against Flash (some of them rooted firmly in the distant past) but most people are open-minded enough to hear you out if you know what you're talking about and can explain to them where Flash is today and which direction it is heading in.
- Sign up for web applications like Flickr, Google Mail, Upcoming, Google Docs, Facebook, and Twitter. Play around with them. In other words, use the web! If nothing else, you'll see how others tackle the same challenges we face using different technologies. You may also find opportunities for improving those experiences using Flash.
In short, I believe we can all make an effort to meet and learn from the greater web community and get involved in non-Flash events. I know first hand how beneficial this can be to broadening your horizons. And I urge both the Flash and HMTL/CSS/JavaScript/Ajax/Standards camps to lay aside their prejudices and embrace the possibilities presented by different points of view. We have a lot to learn from each other.
On that note, I hope I'll see some Flashers at the WSG meeting next week and at Hack Day on 16/17th of June.
The Flash developers don’t know the web. article by Aral Balkan, unless otherwise expressly stated, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 2.0 UK: England License.
gah
1. Do you know what a mashup is?
Yes
2. Have you ever created a mashup?
Yes
3. Do you know CSS?
Yes
4. Do you use webmail regularly?
No. Though I’m not sure what that has to do with it all.
5. How many social networking sites are you on?
4, 2 I check regularly.
6. How many web applications do you use on a daily basis?
Around 4
7. Do you subscribe to RSS feeds?
Yes
8. Do you use SWF Object or UFO?
No. Though it rings a bell from my flash days.
9. If you answered yes to the question above, do you know why you use SWF Object or UFO?
No
10. Do you blog?
Yes.
Im a designer and a Ruby On Rails developer. I HATE XHTML/CSS but I do that too.
1. Yes.
2. Yes. Musical ones and (mixed) application (source) ones
3. Yes. But wish I had more ‘Zen’
4. Yes. Gmail is a lifeline.
5. Yes. About 5. But I build them too.
6. Yes. Lost count. I build them too.
7. Yes. Literally thousands of them (I built podcast.com)
8. Yes. SWFObject.
9. Yes. a) To work with the ‘AJAX/AHAH’ plus SharedObject stuff which happen in the page. and b) To ensure decent version detection.
10. Yes. kosso.wordpress.com – and a few other places.
Score: 10
I’ve been building web based sites and stuff from 1993/4
Around that time, I learned how to program Lingo in Director 4 and learned Photoshop skills. Spent years then combining and learning new skills with Flash – integrating data based ‘stuff’ via Perl generated txt files etc.
Once I taught myself PHP and MySql I wrote a SMIL publishing system and then never looked back at way I could use that to interface with just about anything. Shockwave, Flash, RealPlayer, Quicktime player, desktopapps.
If you remember the huge BBC video screens at some railways stations around, I designed that system. Onscreen is Shockwave9. Back end is PHP and MySql – UI (for journos) is fullscreen Flash tapping PHP and Mysql, delivering via XML payloads.
Actionscript used to scare the crap out of me. Seeing things like PrayStation inspired me to add dynamic data to Flash a long time ago – in a creative fashion.
Through all this, I consider myself what I call a self-taught ‘createc’.
I’ll very soon need to seek out some top notch Flash/Flex/Apollo ‘createcs’ with a passion for data, for various (easy to build) UIs for podcast.com :)
This is just a weird statement. I find Flash developers know the web much more than average. The development community is far more active and savvy than most others.
As for mashups, check out:
http://gallery.yahoo.com/flash
http://www.programmableweb.com/tag/flash
http://www.programmableweb.com/tag/flex
So here’s the deal with mashups; Flash apps are not as easily reproduce-able as AJAX ones. Looking at the abundance of Google Maps mashups out there, it is easy to view source in a browser, copy and paste, change the data source, and re-post as something else. For Flash, it is much more involved, but the result is usually much more captivating.
As for limited blogging from the Flash community, I’m sure the 1246 feeds on mxna might disagree as well.
In fact I would go so far as to say that all the Flash based data-driven stuff I learned in Flash taught me alot more about the web (2.0) – especially for cross-platform accessible rich applications.
The fundamental understanding of what is required on the back end for Flash actually paved the way for using Ajax etc. on html based systems and interfaces.
Learning Actionscript taught me how to code. Skills learned from PHP also feeds new skills in AS. And vice versa. It’s been a wonderful relationship.
I can see the power of Apollo – taking all this knowledge through to the desktop.
I have previously used ‘Zinc’ to build desktop apps from Flash (www.multidmedia.com)
:)
yes to all yes/no questions : 8
social networking sites : 3
web apps : 3
Score : 14
Hey Aral,
I think there needs to be a distinction – is the title meant to be taken as “Flash devs don’t know how to use the web” or “Flash devs don’t know how to develop for the web”?
I’ve been involved with Flash and the Flash community since late 97/early 98 but web development was what paid the bills for a long time. :)
Its always been very important to me to be proficient at every aspect of development. Its a great feeling to know I can wear any hat in the shop. I can write the front end to strict XHTML standards, proficiently write css and javascript, write the back end in ASP.net (C#), RoR or PHP and create the database using MS SQL Server or MySQL and manage the whole thing using either IIS or Apache.
I think folks that just learn one specific skill (but keep meaning to get around to learning more..) give themselves a very short shelf life.
@Chuck Freedman – from the Programmable Web link for Flex mashups above – this one is mine: http://www.programmableweb.com/url/6345
Hi Branden:
The title was more of an attention grabber than anything else but I don’t really see a distinction: In order to know something you should really use it. The main point I’m trying to make is that I don’t see a lot of Flash developers actually using web applications. And I definitely don’t see Flash developers at non-Flash-focussed events (even free ones). I think it would be helpful if we opened up a little!
@Eric Dolecki: Thanks for enlightening us with your one word of wisdom! :) Now wasn’t that just a waste of an otherwise useful few bytes in my database?
1. Surely all developers must know what a mashup is by now? :-o
2. I’ve never made a mashup in Flash, but i’ve made a few mashups using APIs from flickr, google maps, geonames, and technorati. I wish I had attended Flash Brighton, at least I could have raised my hand when you asked about mashups :) I’ll try to make it to the next techy one.
3. I know CSS reasonably well. Not to Clearleft’s standards though ;)
4. I use nothing but gmail!
5. I’m on a few social networking sites. Flickr, twitter, Facebook, Linkedin, probably more..
6. I use the same apps you list, except Google Docs, I haven’t found a need for that yet.
7. I read far too many RSS feeds. Netvibes.com changed my use of RSS completely.
8. I use SWFObject.
9. Bizarrely, I hadn’t heard of UFO until now :-o
10. I blog a few times a week about random things.
I may not fit your sweeping statement as i’m not just a Flash developer, I do lots of other things too.
Regarding Flash developers not making mashups, I wonder whether it’s the mindset of this breed of developer, or the fact that it’s not as quick to make mashups in Flash? As SWXFormat becomes more well known, I would have thought developers will start using it for that. I’ll certainly give it a go when I have some spare time!
Interesting post Aral… For another 1 for your web apps I can’t recommend Google Reader highly enough for rss reading. I scored pretty highly on that quiz, but I found the questions interesting for me as whilst my personal interest is largely in the Flash world, professionally we don’t do a huge amount of Flash work here.
As a result I’d consider myself a definite all-rounder. I try to keep on top of things going on in the web-standards field, the accessability side of things, server side languages, databases, business solutions (e.g. CRM tools, project management tools etc) and anything new and ‘buzz’. On top of that, not falling too in-love with any one platform or vendor lends itself to being involved in alot of communities and an awareness of alot of “the greater web”.
However, conversley to all that I also know I’ll never be the greatest mind in technology X and there’s always a huge amount I’ve no idea about… AKA jack of many trades but master of none. Perhaps that’s a bit harsh, but I’m sure I coudl be much more proficient in any one chosen technology if i chose to focus all my time into it, but as Brandon said that’s taking a big gamble in terms of shelf-life and also very restricting for if/when I get plain bored of said technology.
Aral,
No offense, but the post comes off a bit too much like some marketing for SWX. Thats your right to do, but pairing it with a blanket negative statement made me say, “gah.”
I think most Flash developers know plenty about the web, so I don’t quite agree with the title of your post. Now, Flash *designers* may not know much about the web, on that I think I would agree with you if that was what you stated.
[...] My reply is here. and while I was writing my reply, I saw this on Aral’s site. How web 2.0… [...]
Eric,
I actually wasn’t thinking of SWX at all when I started the post but started thinking about it about half-way through. It’s true, I did start creating SWX because I find that it is unnecessarily difficult to create data-driven content in Flash but that’s not the main point of the post. The real topic I’m trying to draw attention to is that (at least in my experience) Flash developers do not appear to be engaging with the wider web community and this is a shame because there’s so much that both communities can give to each other.
Regardless, I feel that the post deserves more than a single syllable response (thanks for clarifying your thoughts in the follow-up). We can definitely do better than communicate online in huffs and grunts. :)
1. Do you know what a mashup is?
No (Well I do now, but didnt when I first saw this question)
2. Have you ever created a mashup?
Actually, yes. Although I did not know the term mashup.
3. Do you know CSS?
Yes.
4. Do you use webmail regularly?
No. Mail apps is heaven.
5. How many social networking sites are you on?
Five.
6. How many web applications do you use on a daily basis?
Three. All is flex related.
7. Do you subscribe to RSS feeds?
Tons and tons of them.
8. Do you use SWF Object or UFO?
Yes. Its kind of a big part of my work. User-friendlyness and search-engine indexation.
9. If you answered yes to the question above, do you know why you use SWF Object or UFO?
Yes.
10. Do you blog?
Yes.
–
14 it is.
Honestly, I don’t see that being into the latest trends and fads really means you “know the web”. It seems to imply that my value as a Flash developer would somehow be enhanced if I started a myspace page and used gmail more often…
I understand the concept that sometimes Flash people live in their own little walled community, but some of the items on the list are a bit odd.
Hi Keith,
The questions are not definitive in any way but I do believe that being aware of (if not into) what’s going on in the greater web sphere is beneficial to Flash developers, if only to give us new avenues of inspiration that we may not have otherwise considered.
At the very least, I’d love to see Flash developers get more involved in at least free community events like BarCamp and Hack Day meetups. It would also be lovely to see non-Flash developers at Flash events. We need to mix things up a little! :)
In fact, I’d love to see at least a couple of non-Flash topics at Flash conferences. Jeremy, for example, gave a great talk at Flash on the Beach (all his talks are great so that’s not a big surprise) and the audience (Flash developers) loved it! Along the same lines, I’d love to see Flash sessions at traditional web conferences too. Actually, I’ve been very lucky in that I’ve been able to present at such conferences in the past few years — it’s a great (and very different) experience!
I was talking to Andy (Budd) a little earlier today as I was writing this and he mentioned how Apollo could be one device that brings the communities closer together and I see how this could be.
Kosso, you’re probably closer to 20 :) Looks like I’m a 12!
“Mashup”…gah. No, just kidding :)
In one way it makes sense that Flash developers don’t ‘know the web’ as much as, say, an AJAX developer or XHTML/CSS designer. I’ve had to work with XHTML/CSS quite a bit (but I won’t touch AJAX for reasons having to do with Internet Explorer) and during those times of banging my head on the desk in frustration over cross-browser incompatibilities and writing IE hacks, spending hours and hours trying to figure out how to get that PNG to display properly or that hidden element to stop creating a huge gap in my nice CSS created container box, I’ve wished that I could just do more work in Flash.
Personally, I hate the word mashup. I feel that it is what it sounds like. MUSH. Rather than being a streamlined and efficient approach to web development, it tends to pull developers in too many directions, and require whole teams of people to pull off what one developer could do with a more well organized set of tools, like…FLASH!
I regret that there are so many competing versions of this API, that API, this language, that language, where there could be (and in my opinion, should be) more co-operation and team work from the top down. Competition is good up to a certain point, but I think in so many situations today, competition harms rather than helps, and teamwork and communication is sadly lacking in industry.
Hey Aral,
I have to say I agree with Eric D on this one. I personally haven’t tried SWX yet, and based on your work I am sure it is a great thing. I do struggle to understand the correlation between understanding the vision of the web and implementation strategies.
I do agree that the Flash community has a real “in-bred” kind of attitude, and that comes from the fact that there has been so much high-pace innovation in this community. We have had to discuss it amongst ourselves for quite a long time, because other communities weren’t quite ready for it yet.
The majority of Flash developers are(were) creatives, and early adopters if you will. I have been proud of the Flash community over the years for being very far ahead of the game vision-wise when it comes to the web.
I believe the Flash community understood/modelled the concept of Rich Internet Applications, and solved many of the issues that other development communities face today (Browser Navigation handling, Asynch Data, Bridging to Desktop, Alternative platforms to the browser,Media Convergence,etc).
As far as mashups go, I think the Flash community was/is probably more in the know about that one than anyone else. There are many Flash devs that just do client-side work and spend a lot of time hunting down free services to use. I remember back in the Central days (now Apollo days) all the mini-mashups people were trying to pull of. Going to Xmethods looking up some services, and trying to build something based on them.
We launched our second Teknision site in 2003, and it integrated chat and language translation web services. I had seen many awesome mashups done before that by others in the community, so the concept has evolved, but it is far from new. I would also bet that the majority of great mashups up to this point have been executed in Flash.
So I am going out on a limb here, and stating that from what I can see, the Flash community has always been right on the bleeding edge of the vision of the web. There are new concepts arising though that the Flash community should definitely be thinking about. One for example:
Identity 2.0 (OpenID) – haven’t seen much work/attention here from the Flash community. This one could change the face of the web in the near future.
I think that a great understanding of the vision of the web going forward should not be based on how many web applications you use daily, it should instead be focused on how many you, and everyone you know “Don’t Use” daily.
Get to the bottom of why that is, and then we as a community will probably do communities other than our own a lot more good overall.
I haven’t been a pure Flasher in a while, so I can’t speak to that end. However, one conference I’d like to shamelessly plug is one that Flashers might find most friendly AND most beneficial for them in moving beyond flash. 360|Flex is a conference aimed at Flex which is programmable Flash. Flex is more conducive to RIA and such. And now with the Flex Component Kit for Flash CS3. Flashers moving into the Flex space can really make a splash.
For those interested about the conference, it can be found at http://360flex.com and yes, I am one of the organizer, but even if I wasn’t I’d still think it was a good conference. 3 Days for $360 is a bargain no matter how you slice it! =)
“Flash developers don’t know the web”.
To make it “trendy” it could be titled:
“Flash developers don’t know the Web 2.0″
But aren’t we all tired of “labeling” and misleading but trendy headlines?
In short: Nobody knows the Web.
Fish does not know the water either.
Hi Tony,
Ah, OpenID was a big one to leave out of that list — thanks for mentioning it.
You’re right about Flash developers (well, OK, Allaire) “inventing” the RIA. We definitely were building “Ajax” applications in Flash in 2000. Flash has always been state-maintaining and has been able to pull and receive pushed data for ages. It’s true that Ajax developers had to go work through the same issues we did (and relatively recently at that). I think it’s also a testament to how well Flash was taught out that there are, at most, a handful of frameworks for Flash whereas there are hundreds for Ajax/JavaScript.
But, leaving blowing our own horn to one side, we are also lacking in terms of the sheer amount of experimentation I’m seeing in the JavaScript/HTML world. It’s a wonder that they’re creating so many things with an almost non-existent toolset (and we really are very lucky and spoiled for amazing tools in the Flash world.)
Don’t get me wrong, I do believe that JavaScript/Ajax/CSS developers have a lot to learn from the Flash world but we also have a lot to learn from them. I no doubt that Adobians like Mike Chambers, Christian Cantrell, Mike Downey and Daniel Dura get this and you need only follow their current interests on Twitter to see that they’re very much on top of what’s going on. I do feel, however, that we need to push that sense of exploration and involvement out into the wider Flash community.
I’m scoring about a ten. I know what a mashup is, but I haven’t done one. I’m a web developer so HTML/CSS/DOM Scripting is my bread and butter (along with server-side coding). (But about zero knowledge of Flash)
I’d love to see a group of Flash developers coming along to the open Hack Day next month – this is a chance to show people that Flash is not just an advertising banner gimmick. Show us what Apollo can do, show us what Flex can do, show us what Flash can do, and show us the creativity that is obviously there in the Flash development world. Amaze us!
To be honest, kosso was the first blogger who gave me the glimpse of what Flash is capable of in terms of web facing applications. The potential is obviously there. Kosso, I hope you’ll be there at Hack Day.
(Disclaimer: I work for Yahoo Europe, who along with the BBC, are organising the open Hack Day.)
@Sasha – It could have been worse, I could have called it “Flash developers don’t know the web (but are good in bed!)” :)
@Tom:
Flex *is* Flash. Calling Flex “programmable Flash” is wrong and an insult to ActionScript programmers who do not develop in Flex.
Flex is an ActionScript library, tag preprocessor and a set of related tools for the Flash platform. MXML gets compiled down to ActionScript and both Flash and Flex result in SWF bytecode that is run in the Flash Player.
At the end of the day, you don’t need Flex or even Flash (the IDE) to create SWF bytecode. Alongside open source IDE alternatives, you can simply write ActionScript and compile that into SWF bytecode (via MTASC for AS 2.0 and Adobe’s own compiler for AS 3.0). There is nothing more or less “programmable” about Flex than there is about Flash.
That said, I do love Flex and here’s wishing you best of luck with your conference!
wth? How can someone use SWFObject and not know why they’re using it??? hahahahaha
And is anyone building apps that don’t source their data content from at least 1-2 sources…? What’s the point?
“@Tom:
Flex *is* Flash. Calling Flex “programmable Flash” is wrong and an insult to ActionScript programmers who do not develop in Flex. ”
Thanks for replying to that Aral. I put in about 60 hours a week programming Flash, and barely, if ever, touch Flex.
I (sort of) agree with Aral, but perhaps for slightly different reasons than the ones he mentions. I suspect that the Flash developers who read this blog regularly are not the ones we need to examine.
I know several designers who are still building for the web of the 20th century. In building a website, they go straight to Flash, perhaps because the learning curve of XHTML/CSS seems to steep. Flash is the easy option, avoiding things like cross-browser issues. Maybe its because they don’t have the skills to argue with a client who wants Flash where its not warranted.
The really sad thing, is that I’ve seen Flash sites that do grave injustice to the client, mainly for the most fundamental reason of all (search engine exposure).
I’d like to see us examine the roots of this ignorance. I know some art colleges in the UK are still teaching students that the way to build a site is with Flash alone; therefore, the ignorance is perhaps institutional.
I can only assume that the reason for this is one of teaching resources: you want students to learn with quick rewards, so you give them something that gives instant gratification (which Flash certainly does compared to XHTML/CSS).
I tried to raise this issue at the final panel of FOWD, and in reply, Andy Clarke told a funny story about his son creating dodgy HTML in school with MS frontpage, then got a laugh by proposing that we should abolish our education system. Yeah, thanks Andy, really productive answer.
I think that there’s an opportunity for enlightened developers to reach out to the institutions and start educating best practise. My impression is that important messages about the way the web works are being ignored by decision makers and designer/developers alike.
[...] Aral Balkan offers a test that will help you understand how in or out of the web loop you are and have become on his blog (link). [...]
Flash developer, score 14
Here’s a question: What do you think non-Flash web developers would score? Do all Ajax developers do mashups, use webmail and social networking sites, and blog a lot? I bet Flash developers stack up pretty well to other web devs – except maybe for CSS stuff :)
Thanks for the kind words, Aral. I’m a back-end guy, but I’ve just started playing with Flex. It’s really nifty, although I wish there was a RELAX NG schema available for MXML (XSD is okay, but it’s just a lot less sane). It’d be interesting to see how Flash/Flex can work with Semantic Web technology.
I got fifteen points on the quiz.
1. Do you know what a mashup is?
Yes
2. Have you ever created a mashup?
My current project (internal application for our salespeople) *is* a glorified mashup
3. Do you know CSS?
Yes
4. Do you use webmail?
Yes
5. How many social networking sites are you on?
LinkedIn and OKCupid
6. How many web applications do you use on a daily basis?
Gmail, Google Reader, Trac
7. Do you subscribe to RSS feeds?
Yes
8. Do you use SWF Object or UFO?
UFO
9. If you answered yes to the question above, do you know why you use SWF Object or UFO?
Eolas (f’ing pricks), plus I prefer UFO’s unobtrusiveness
10. Do you blog?
Not a whole lot
I’m primarily an HTML/CSS/JavaScript/PHP developer, but I’m not adverse to using Flash/Flex when the I feel it’s the best tool for the job (example: anything dealing with audio/video would be hell to do without Flash, as would anything requiring server-push)
“@Tom: Flex *is* Flash. Calling Flex “programmable Flash” is wrong and an insult to ActionScript programmers who do not develop in Flex.”
“I put in about 60 hours a week programming Flash, and barely, if ever, touch Flex.”
I third that. I would even argue that pure AS developers don’t have the advantage of a tag-based language that takes care of layout and depth issues, specially those who work in Advertising and have to create their own components and frameworks from scratch, in order to deliver the experiences (that’s RIAs!) that are commissioned to them.
That said, I also like Flex and work with Flex developers and there’s no reason why we can’t play together in the same sand box :)
BTW, I scored 23
Nothing like touching a nerve eh? I agree with your recommendations (like studying other areas than your main gig)… but being on twitter or making a mashup doesn’t make you any more of a web dev than not. In fact, I’ll bet the number of us who’ve made mashups for actual real client work is next to 0.
As far as people being slow to adopt twitter… that’s sort of an odd one because twitter wasn’t interesting until people (and my people) were using it. Same with any social network. In fact, I don’t see how you believe any specific social network is necessary. And webmail? what? I guess I use it–but only when I have to. Embracing every new thing (be it a fad or something that turns out to have lasting power) doesn’t make you any “better”. In fact, you end up spinning wheels a lot following trends that don’t pan out. Sure, you make the web a better place along the way.
Anyway, I think you have a lot of great points–mainly that people tend to live sheltered lives and that a good mode of development is to investigate new things. But… personally, I do this work because I like it, people pay me, and I’m pretty good at it. I do very little (web stuff anyway) because I think it’ll help the world. In fact, I’ll totally sacrifice everything on your list for a buck.
Anyway, some things to add to your list:
–do you write books?
–do you cook fresh meals or go out to eat?
–do you travel a lot thereby using more fuel?
–do you write comments in blogs?
–do you read spam just for kicks?
–do you use quick-keys?
–do you use a mac or windows… and why not both?
–do you have any magnets in your office?
–do you back up your files carefully (and, do you think this stuff is archive-worthy)?
–do you listen to MP3s or live music only?
Thanks!
GAH. GAH. GAH.
If all of the Ajax/XHTML/CSS developers out there truly knew Flash…they’d be using it too! It’s those people who could do with broadening their horizons.
I believe it’s the top edge of the Flash envelope that by and large represents the most enlightened aspect of the web development community as a whole.
After all, how could someone possibly be considered as forward thinking, technically creative, completely informed of the power and reach of Flash as a platform…and yet choose to continue using a garden spade to develop web applications?
Clark Out.
This is an awesome thread! Great discussion.
I really think it’s important that we all try out the things (we think we don’t like) which others prefer. Just to learn more about our varied ‘superpowers’.
To me they’re all ‘instruments’. Architecture. Code. Design. Harmony. They can all work together and create the most amazingly simple and obvious things.
It took me a long time to ‘get’ Object Oriented programming – I’m still crap at it – but Flash really taught me a lot through the MovieClips and being able to visualise a piece of data or result, with whatever properties I wanted, in beautiful stretchy vectors. Crisp. Nice.
Then getting these ‘things’ to almost ‘talk’ to eachother, creating a team, all working at the right time and place – like clockwork is exactly how I now build systems in my head. Visualising the parts of the machine doing what they’re told – whirring or spinning – and being greater than the sum of their parts.
Very much like the old Wilf Lunn ‘eggrace’ inventions you used to see on the telly back in the day. That’s how I ‘see’ code.
The ‘machine’ is the app. Or even the whole internet. It just needs all these cables and pulleys and cogs and clocks talking nice to eachother, in a format they can easily understand or translate. Flash/AS, Lingo, Ajax, PHP, Ruby, Perl, JSP, ASP, JavaScript, XML – in all its well-formed guises and shapes, anything – it all works well together on the web. SO easily.
—
sorry for the rant ;)
unfortunately I’m going to be in the States around HackDay time, working and also sitting on a panel at TIECon East about the web and data and all this mullarkey – and how important is that no matter what format we all choose to get different ‘species’ of apps talking, we do so CORRECTLY. Well-formed. Standardized or WELL documented.
And as simply as possible.
Scored a 10 (no on 8 and 9, several web apps a day).
After dabbling with Flash, Flex, and AS I still prefer JavaScript and the “non-flash” web. Flash is really powerful and has lots of great potential but what turned me off was the perception of where they’re taking ActionScript philosophically compared to EMCAScript (the basis for both JavaScript and ActionScript). ActionScript, especially ActionScript 3.0, seems like it’s becoming much more of a “safety” language. If you don’t know what I’m talking about check out this great article “Freedom languages” (http://www.journalhome.com/codecraft/9003/).
I’m kind of excited by MS SilverLight because of it’s similarity to Flash (vector graphic’s and rich media wise) but with the ability to program in a variety of programming languages, if only I can get over reservations about it being Microsoft.
I like that you say.
And you have reason.
But not all webdevelopers…
I have a 3 sites to date, and the 3 sites use swfObject, have a parallel content in html, you can try.
I haven´t knowing the web to 100%, but really developers need more info and search by themselves.
My sites are:
http://www.cristatlantico.com
http://www.vidriovivo.com
http://www.sipromat.com (not finish)
http://www.juanfrancisco.com (the navigation bar o header is flash)
Thanks for the insightful comments, everyone. Do weigh in on this. I’m glad we’re having this conversation :)
Score 11 ( student @ MCT in Kortrijk, Belgium )
Do Flash developers know the web or are they just creating their own shielded applications ?
Personally I think I use the web a lot. Reading blogs and forums, checking mail, using Skype, …
The social networking over the internet is amazing. I have my “real-life” friends, but it’s very
interesting to find people with the same passion for Flash who still have different opinions.
However, the “normal” people ( as in the people who don’t speak geek-language ), are catching up
very quickly. A few days ago they spoke about JOOST in the news, giving it a tremendous boost ( watch the rhyme ).
People who used the net for email are now watching tv, chatting on twitter, posting on youtube, sharing on myspace,… Just the other day my mom told me to use Skype do keep down the phone bill. How amazing is that !
In order to create the applications the world wants Flashs developers HAVE to know the web. Even if they don’t care about all those fancy little sites, they have to know what they do and, more importantly, why they’re around.
The internet lives. Although it’s impossible to keep up to date with every little hype that comes around the corner, we should not just surf on the web but really dive into it.
Just my thoughts ofcourse ;)
Yeah, I’ll side with Keith’s original comment, and Phillip’s comment. I think “Do you know what ___ is?” is probably a more appropriate question than “do you use ___ on a regular basis.”
I’ll never use Twitter, because to me it’s a useless time-wasting way to make ourselves feel like the rest of the world really cares what we’re eating for lunch. But, I’ve seen it in action, and I realize the impact (for better or worse) it’s currently having. Same goes for Google Docs. My wife and I started collaborating on a few things, but went back to less web-centric solutions because it’s not quite ready for us yet. I can hold my own with CSS, but more importantly I generally understand its usefulness and potential hiccups. And it’s the same for all the technologies. We could make a list of 20 programming languages and then claim “how do you know whether or not to use them if you aren’t using them on a regular basis.”
(BTW my score is 12, and only one of those comes from a social networking site :) )
Timely update: my mom scored higher than you Aral. And… someone needs to tell the world that Flickr’s functionality and UI [was going to say "sucks" but instead] leaves a lot to be desired.
Go Phillip’s mom! And here we were, fearing the inevitable conquest of the 12-year-olds! :)
join and enjoy it;)
1. Do you know what a mashup is?
Yes.
2. Have you ever created a mashup?
No.
3. Do you know CSS?
Yes.
4. Do you use webmail?
I despise mail apps. (That’s a resounding yes)
5. How many social networking sites are you on?
2
6. How many web applications do you use on a daily basis?
6? Not sure
7. Do you subscribe to RSS feeds?
Many. Google home page for the win.
8. Do you use SWF Object or UFO?
My Flash applications are not designed for web deployment. So neither.
9. If you answered yes to the question above, do you know why you use SWF Object or UFO?
N/A
10. Do you blog?
No
Total Score: 12
Flash Developer.
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. 5
6. 4
7. No
8. SWFObj
9. Yes, never heard of Ufo
10. No
==> 14
1. Do you know what a mashup is? yes
2. Have you ever created a mashup? yes, i created http://www.cadburygooearth.com
3. Do you know CSS? yes
4. Do you use webmail? yes, yahoo mail
5. How many social networking sites are you on? 4
6. How many web applications do you use on a daily basis? 2 or 3
7. Do you subscribe to RSS feeds? yes
8. Do you use SWF Object or UFO? yep, SWF Objext
9. If you answered yes to the question above, do you know why you use SWF Object or UFO?, yep, graceful degredation, alternate content. version detection
10. Do you blog? nah :(
Score: 13 (and a bit)
10, Flash Developer
forgot to say
web developer (flash/actionscript/xhtml/css/javascript/php/.NET)
Interesting, I dont see a direct connection between knowing development tools or languages -AND- knowing the web, but from the comments here I get the feeling you may be right.. but this is probably true to all developers, not just flashers.
There is a difference between developers and entrepreneurs, even if they can coexist in one person.. you don’t have to master the social networking trends in order to be a good flash developer, just as you don’t have to know AS in order to invent a new web application, but it sure is an advantage..
What’s the temperature issue with Linkedin?
10, flashist..
Flash Developer
Score: 18-20
I’m abnormally obsessed with the web (probably like many others here) and think it has less to do with what kind of developer I am and more about my personality. If you are an open minded and curious developer, you’ll be using Twitter or Stumbled Upon and know what Buzzword is, or that Yahoo! finance was made in Flex but Yahoo! TV was not.
I work with a fleet of J2EE developers and would say 80% of them could not name the programming language of Flash/Flex. So, yes it behooves the Flash Developer to know as much about non-flash solutions as possible, but I’d like to see the rest of the non-Flash developers learn more about Flash/Flex.
I’d also like to know the average CTOs score on this survey as they greatly influence site architecture for the dot com world.
Thanks for the links above, Aral. It’s a great time to be a developer! We’re all very blessed to have so much to choose from.
There are two paths to get people to listen to you. You can incite or you can inspire. I believe you chose the former. While the gist of your point was worthy he tone was condescending and elitist. I remember your anti-war blog being of the same ilk. I don’t believe someone needs to subscribe to your parameters of ability to be worthy as a Flash developer/designer. Oh if we could all think/act/work like each other what a diverse world we would have.
i don’t, for example, use twitter as i don’t feel i need to know when my friends are doing the washing up and equally don’t feel the need to tell them when i’m doing the same. it’s not like the only reason not to use or know something is ignorance, it might just not be for you or be useful to you. if i were to start using twitter just so that i was up on current trends i wouldn’t be using it in the right way anyway. and it’s not like all flash apps/anims are social networking mash-ups anyway.
if my client needed a twitter flash app, sure i’d look into it, get an account, mess around etc. until then, unless i suddenly decide that i DO want to know when my friends are doing housework – which i can see the merits of actually – i’ll carry on much as before.
but thanks for the ‘heads up’. even if you disagree it’s good to be shown ‘another way’ even if only to strengthen your own beliefs.
Jesus Christ Aral, where did that unfounded vitriol come from?! I’m offended!
* I’m *not* “stanchly anti-Flash”
* You won’t find Flash on the list of topics because it the conference has always focussed around web standards. It has a theme, always has done, as do most conferences.
* I don’t recall ever saying “Flash-sucks-and-I-don’t-want-to-hear-any-differently” – I was quite possibly drunk (no apologies for that) – and whatever I said I certainly didn’t say *that*.
Thanks for personally categorising me as a very closed-minded individual. Do you always categorise people so harshly after mere minutes of conversation? Get to know me before you pretend to know what kind of person I am.
“@Media events to support his irrational and fundamentalist prejudice and nor will I be recommending the conference to Flash developers. Basically, don’t waste your money on @Media if you’re a Flash developer as it’s pretty clear that we’re not welcome there.”
That’s fine, but, again, I don’t know where you’ve got all of this from. I don’t have any irrrational, fundamentalist prejudices. No, the conference doesn’t cover Flash, but everyone’s welcome.
Did I bully you as a child or something?
Hi Patrick,
You’re right, we did only talk for a few minutes after d.construct and I don’t know whether you were drunk or not (possible, it was at a pub) but what I found offensive was how strongly you attacked Flash after I had spent an hour talking about how both communities have so much to learn from each other (which I still believe). Unfortunately, a few people in the web standards community have a cancerous mix of a holier-than-thou attitude combined with a staggering ignorance about the last five years or so of Flash. Thankfully only *a few* and not all.
Let’s just say that I talk to web standards people all the time and count some of my very best friends amongst them. Your attitude, however, only serves to alienate Flash people more. So yes, there’s no way I would recommend a Flash developer to attend one of your conferences only for them to be subjected to an irrational and vile hate.
It was two years ago, I don’t remember your exact words but the gist of it was as I stated. And, as someone who usually doesn’t dwell on things, let me tell you that your unwarranted attack two years ago apparently made its mark as it showed me (perhaps for the first time), the darker side of the elitist (and either ignorant or fundamentalist) attitude that I have since seen a couple of times from a very small number of people in the web standards community.
You’re not doing the web standards movement any favors by alienating Flash people. You definitely alienated this one and I hope that you at least don’t alienate future Flash developers. The two communities have a lot to teach each other and a lot to learn from one another but it won’t happen as long as they look down on the other.
Update: I just re-read what I wrote and decided to reword it to make it clear that those are *my* opinions based on how you appeared to *me*. Of course I cannot make a generic statement about how closed-minded or open-minded you are in general but you did come off as being very closed-minded on this matter. The reworded section will hopefully reflect this.
Man. I really don’t get it. It sounds like whatever I said was taken completely the wrong way.
I’m really actually quite bothered by this. I’ve attempted to find some contact information so I can email you directly, but failed.
On the few occasions we’ve met, you have always greeted me with a smile, you’ve struck me as an intelligent, rational, nice individual and I know that mutual friends hold you in high esteem, which in turn rubs off on me. It is important to me what people such as yourself think of what I do.
I have a lot of respect for the Flash community, I don’t look down on it *at all* and I agree lessons can be learned cross-”community” (and *you* have taught me a lot about Flash). It’s quite possible I took a hard-line, devil’s advocate’s stance when I was talking to you – mainly to get more direct answers to queries I have. But, again, you don’t know me, and if you did you wouldn’t call me irrational or elitist. Aggressive in argument, maybe.
From a few minutes conversation, however much impact, to brand me as irrational, prejudiced, elitist, and having “a cancerous mix of a holier-than-thou attitude combined with a staggering ignorance about the last five years or so of Flash” is shocking and hugely ignorant in itself. You *are* wrong on all counts.
You don’t seem to believe me, but I’ll say it again – I am not anti-Flash. I certainly won’t subject anyone to “an irrational and vile hate” (harsh!) Keep in mind that I don’t speak at @media, and I don’t say to any of the speakers “right, we need some good Flash bashing here, people!”. Many of the speakers are those that you explicitly highlight as respecting, in fact. Are you suggesting that my “vile hate” will somehow rub off on their presentations?
You clearly have an image in your mind of what @media is like, but you haven’t actually ever attended one, have you? Even if my personality shone through across the event, just imagine for one moment that you have got me wrong.
I’m not trying to alienate Flash people, and I’m very sorry I’ve has any such impact on you. It is down to a misunderstanding. I want you to believe that, but it doesn’t seem you want to.
@Patrick: Fair enough. It didn’t feel like it at the time but it’s possible that you were playing devil’s advocate and that it was a misunderstanding. I can only go with the impression that it made on me at the time and that was a very strong, negative one.
Regardless, though, I guess I cannot favor a dated personal opinion of my own over the reality of your current views as you’ve voiced them here. I have no reason to disbelieve what you’ve said.
As such I’m removing the section on @Media from the post. I won’t go so far as to recommend the conference to Flash people, but perhaps I’ll attend one in the future and see.
Do we get extra points for:
* using flash 4 back in the day
* remembering the days before google
* advocating firefox over ie
* owning a MBP
* being addicted to facebook
and my latest
* having your own yahoo pipe that aggregates all things you into one customisable feed!!
haha, dont you just love the web!!
LOL! Keith, you definitely get extra points, if only for the Yahoo pipe! :)
1. Do you know what a mashup is?
Yes.
2. Have you ever created a mashup?
Yes I have used: Google Maps API, Google search API, FlickrPHP
3. Do you know CSS?
Yes.
4. Do you use webmail?
@mail on my Media Temple Server.
5. How many social networking sites are you on?
Facebook / MySpace
6. How many web applications do you use on a daily basis?
None.
7. Do you subscribe to RSS feeds?
You betcha.
8. Do you use SWF Object or UFO?
SWF Object
9. If you answered yes to the question above, do you know why you use SWF Object or UFO?
Best way to embed flash videos with version detection and JS backwards compatibility.
10. Do you blog?
Yes (it’s about music. But it is my blog). Mixtapesongs.com
1. Do you know what a mashup is?
Yes
2. Have you ever created a mashup?
No
3. Do you know CSS?
Yes
4. Do you use webmail regularly?
Yes
5. How many social networking sites are you on?
5 (Orkut, MySpace, ZDNet,hifive)
6. How many web applications do you use on a daily basis?
3(Affinitiz.com, Google Writely and Google Spread sheet because i dont have MS office installed on my PC)
7. Do you subscribe to RSS feeds?
Yes
8. Do you use SWF Object or UFO?
Yes
9. If you answered yes to the question above, do you know why you use SWF Object or UFO?
Yes
10. Do you blog?
Yes.
SO the grand total is 15
[...] Aral Balkan va explica de ce. Si cand te gandesti cati bani dau unele companii pentru un “site in Flash”, in locul unuia html chior, care ar fi mai frumos, mai usor de folosit, mai usor de citit, mai accesibil, mai ce vreti voi… Filed Under » [...]
Aral.
It’s 6pm I’ve just spent the last 8 hours being a flash developer, trying to hit a deadline.
I didn’t have time for 4, 5, 6, 7 and 10.
I leave 3, 8 and 9 to the web devs.
I know what a mashup is.
WTF?