Comments on: MAX 2006 To Break Attendance Records http://aralbalkan.com/778 Aral on Flash, SWX, Flex, ActionScript, and life. Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:55:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5 By: Phillip Kerman http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6372 Phillip Kerman Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:14:24 +0000 http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6372 Hey Ben, I appreciate the comments. I agree that there are other conferences that don't pay; there are quality speakers at MAX (not all of them however); and I believe you invest a lot of time (beyond the call of duty) to do community stuff with no pay. A couple points though: --you reference the cost of paying for employees travel and hotels.. well, on the one hand, that's just the cost of doing business... and similar to my cost to attend the conference. But to include the cost of Adobe employees travel/hotel seems to forget that many of them are speaking too. Why don't they pay for it themselves? Again--cost of doing business. In any event, I think to include that cost when saying it doesn't make money is odd. --just because you can find people to speak for free doesn't NOT mean it's a dumb business move to pay them. I can find a high school student to do PHP programming for free. But when you have money involved you immediately add a level of professionalism. Sure people will still take the free offer to speak--but I also can name several people who won't speak at MAX because of a bad experience which--if they had only gotten paid a nominal fee--they would have had a totally different opinion. Finally, my point is simply that when you all do finally start paying expenses and an honorarium you're welcome to thank me for my advice. Seriously, I'm not so much complaining (partially, sure) but more trying to give you sincere advice... and the fact you're listening makes it worthwhile. Thanks. Hey Ben, I appreciate the comments. I agree that there are other conferences that don’t pay; there are quality speakers at MAX (not all of them however); and I believe you invest a lot of time (beyond the call of duty) to do community stuff with no pay.

A couple points though:
–you reference the cost of paying for employees travel and hotels.. well, on the one hand, that’s just the cost of doing business… and similar to my cost to attend the conference. But to include the cost of Adobe employees travel/hotel seems to forget that many of them are speaking too. Why don’t they pay for it themselves? Again–cost of doing business. In any event, I think to include that cost when saying it doesn’t make money is odd.

–just because you can find people to speak for free doesn’t NOT mean it’s a dumb business move to pay them. I can find a high school student to do PHP programming for free. But when you have money involved you immediately add a level of professionalism. Sure people will still take the free offer to speak–but I also can name several people who won’t speak at MAX because of a bad experience which–if they had only gotten paid a nominal fee–they would have had a totally different opinion.

Finally, my point is simply that when you all do finally start paying expenses and an honorarium you’re welcome to thank me for my advice. Seriously, I’m not so much complaining (partially, sure) but more trying to give you sincere advice… and the fact you’re listening makes it worthwhile.

Thanks.

]]> By: LEE http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6352 LEE Sun, 22 Oct 2006 21:12:38 +0000 http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6352 I found another speaker who's discussed this topic here, also with loads of responses: http://www.molly.com/2006/06/23/will-not-speak-for-food/ I found another speaker who’s discussed this topic here, also with loads of responses: http://www.molly.com/2006/06/23/will-not-speak-for-food/

]]> By: LEE http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6347 LEE Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:53:14 +0000 http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6347 "...there are lots of quality speakers banging our doors down for the opportunity to speak." - Forta Apparently the payoff of "being a conference speaker" is worth paying for? Hmm. In that case, I'll be hosting an event in 2010. You'll be famous if you speak at my event, for it will be at the Taj Mahal with guest DJ Tiesto, and all the industry players will be there. Register now for only $5,000 to speak at my event, travel/food/accomodations not included. Not interested? Fine with me, there's TONS of billions of gagillions of other speakers who would sell their mother's liver for a chance at the fame I'm talking about. Listener registration is free if you register as a speaker! Plus, you'll receive a FREE gift bag with a picture of me, and my logo on it! SWEET huH? heh. Maybe it's time to begin organizing your own conferences Aral? By speakers/developers/designers, for speakers/developers/designers. Having experience with speaking, aral, would you agree that the payoff of being a conference speaker is worth covering your own travel/food/accomodations expenses? “…there are lots of quality speakers banging our doors down for the opportunity to speak.” - Forta

Apparently the payoff of “being a conference speaker” is worth paying for? Hmm.

In that case, I’ll be hosting an event in 2010. You’ll be famous if you speak at my event, for it will be at the Taj Mahal with guest DJ Tiesto, and all the industry players will be there. Register now for only $5,000 to speak at my event, travel/food/accomodations not included. Not interested? Fine with me, there’s TONS of billions of gagillions of other speakers who would sell their mother’s liver for a chance at the fame I’m talking about. Listener registration is free if you register as a speaker! Plus, you’ll receive a FREE gift bag with a picture of me, and my logo on it! SWEET huH?

heh. Maybe it’s time to begin organizing your own conferences Aral? By speakers/developers/designers, for speakers/developers/designers.

Having experience with speaking, aral, would you agree that the payoff of being a conference speaker is worth covering your own travel/food/accomodations expenses?

]]> By: Ben Forta http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6345 Ben Forta Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:17:49 +0000 http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6345 I've explained this before, but what the heck, let's try one more time ... MAX (including DevCon before it) is not intended to be a money maker. It never has been, Macromedia did not make money on MAX, and neither did Allaire previously. The event usually more or less covers its own costs, more or less. This year MAX will lose money. The biggest reason for that is the venue - Las Vegas is a very expensive place to host an event, the venue costs more, rooms for employees cost more, catering costs more ... everything about Las Vegas costs more. Which is one of the reasons why we've never had the event in Las Vegas before. But this year, with all of the distractions caused by the Macromedia acquisition, we got started on MAX far later than we should have done, and by that time the venue choices were few and far between. Next year we'll hopefully be in a more cost-effective location, and then maybe MAX can cover its own costs once again. Having said that, I personally don't expect the compensation situation to change. We've never paid speakers, not since the first event in 1999 in Boston. And we've never had a problem attracting quality speakers and ensuring quality content. Sure, there are speakers who will decline the offer to speak without being compensated, and that is their prerogative. But many others want to speak, in fact, we turn down most speaker requests because we have too many to accommodate. And, to put it very bluntly, from a business perspective it makes little sense to pay for speakers when there are lots of quality speakers banging our doors down for the opportunity to speak. And finally, I have spoken at more conferences then I care to recall, including Software Development, Java One in three different continents, Flash Forward, and many more - and I have never been compensated. Never. I have had my hotel covered, and once I was offered reimbursement for flights, but that is it. Contrary to what some of you may think, there is a precedent, and MAX is not out of the norm. And with that, I'm off to MAX! --- Ben I’ve explained this before, but what the heck, let’s try one more time …

MAX (including DevCon before it) is not intended to be a money maker. It never has been, Macromedia did not make money on MAX, and neither did Allaire previously. The event usually more or less covers its own costs, more or less. This year MAX will lose money. The biggest reason for that is the venue - Las Vegas is a very expensive place to host an event, the venue costs more, rooms for employees cost more, catering costs more … everything about Las Vegas costs more. Which is one of the reasons why we’ve never had the event in Las Vegas before. But this year, with all of the distractions caused by the Macromedia acquisition, we got started on MAX far later than we should have done, and by that time the venue choices were few and far between. Next year we’ll hopefully be in a more cost-effective location, and then maybe MAX can cover its own costs once again.

Having said that, I personally don’t expect the compensation situation to change. We’ve never paid speakers, not since the first event in 1999 in Boston. And we’ve never had a problem attracting quality speakers and ensuring quality content. Sure, there are speakers who will decline the offer to speak without being compensated, and that is their prerogative. But many others want to speak, in fact, we turn down most speaker requests because we have too many to accommodate. And, to put it very bluntly, from a business perspective it makes little sense to pay for speakers when there are lots of quality speakers banging our doors down for the opportunity to speak.

And finally, I have spoken at more conferences then I care to recall, including Software Development, Java One in three different continents, Flash Forward, and many more - and I have never been compensated. Never. I have had my hotel covered, and once I was offered reimbursement for flights, but that is it. Contrary to what some of you may think, there is a precedent, and MAX is not out of the norm.

And with that, I’m off to MAX!

— Ben

]]> By: Robert Reinhardt http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6331 Robert Reinhardt Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:37:05 +0000 http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6331 Over the last eight years that I've been speaking at conferences, I've learned some painful lessons. I've spoken at conferences during periods where I've been self-employed or employed by a company like Schematic. My creed used to be that I'd only speak without compensation at conferences or events that were for organizations like SIGGRAPH (I won't call them non-profits, but any money they make goes back into the organization). However, the more I think about the whole speaking circuit, I think it's just about making smart decisions with your time--and time is money for anyone that is self-employed. There are plenty of conferences willing to pay for speaker expenses and provide honorariums, and I think these conferences raise the profile of self-employed folks well enough. You don't need MAX for anything other than to say you spoke at MAX. I don't see MAX as the Academy award equivalent of web conferences, not yet at least. Of course, when you work for a company that you don't own, it's not necessarily as big an issue for speakers to have to have their companies fork out the dough for travel and accommodations and your time commitment. You still, of course, have to convince your employer why it's good exposure, but at the end of the day, your salary isn't docked if your company agrees to send you to speak at a conference. And maybe that's what some companies that put on conferences and events "don't get", that a large portion of folks in the web industry are self-employed and don't plan a $4k budget to send themselves to specific events each year. Over the last eight years that I’ve been speaking at conferences, I’ve learned some painful lessons. I’ve spoken at conferences during periods where I’ve been self-employed or employed by a company like Schematic. My creed used to be that I’d only speak without compensation at conferences or events that were for organizations like SIGGRAPH (I won’t call them non-profits, but any money they make goes back into the organization). However, the more I think about the whole speaking circuit, I think it’s just about making smart decisions with your time–and time is money for anyone that is self-employed. There are plenty of conferences willing to pay for speaker expenses and provide honorariums, and I think these conferences raise the profile of self-employed folks well enough. You don’t need MAX for anything other than to say you spoke at MAX. I don’t see MAX as the Academy award equivalent of web conferences, not yet at least. Of course, when you work for a company that you don’t own, it’s not necessarily as big an issue for speakers to have to have their companies fork out the dough for travel and accommodations and your time commitment. You still, of course, have to convince your employer why it’s good exposure, but at the end of the day, your salary isn’t docked if your company agrees to send you to speak at a conference. And maybe that’s what some companies that put on conferences and events “don’t get”, that a large portion of folks in the web industry are self-employed and don’t plan a $4k budget to send themselves to specific events each year.

]]> By: Phillip Kerman http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6327 Phillip Kerman Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:14:56 +0000 http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6327 They do have this event: http://www.onflex.org/ted/2006/10/maxup-sessions-posted.php Who knows what they mean when they say they "lose" money. If you look at the bigger picture I'd be very concerned for a company that continually throws an event that really loses money. I think what they MEAN is that the cost of admisssion doesn't fully offset the entire cost out of Adobe's pocket. And, I'm not sure if that includes the expenses and salary for all their employees (does the CEO have a private jet?). Naturally, the net loss couldn't possibly include the revenue increase as the company grows from us developers. I still don't think the fact they "lose" money has anything to do with them paying for speaker expenses. They rightly don't push the benefits of speaking as a chance to promote your company... only that you get free admission. They do have this event:
http://www.onflex.org/ted/2006/10/maxup-sessions-posted.php

Who knows what they mean when they say they “lose” money. If you look at the bigger picture I’d be very concerned for a company that continually throws an event that really loses money. I think what they MEAN is that the cost of admisssion doesn’t fully offset the entire cost out of Adobe’s pocket. And, I’m not sure if that includes the expenses and salary for all their employees (does the CEO have a private jet?). Naturally, the net loss couldn’t possibly include the revenue increase as the company grows from us developers.

I still don’t think the fact they “lose” money has anything to do with them paying for speaker expenses. They rightly don’t push the benefits of speaking as a chance to promote your company… only that you get free admission.

]]> By: Tink http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6323 Tink Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:51:04 +0000 http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6323 If Max has such as massive attendence but is losing money, then maybe they could look for tips from FF and FiTC who I are capable of running conferences as a business, paying speakers expenses and turning over a profit. That said I love to see them all take a leaf out of OFFF's books and make conferences approachable for all! If Max has such as massive attendence but is losing money, then maybe they could look for tips from FF and FiTC who I are capable of running conferences as a business, paying speakers expenses and turning over a profit.

That said I love to see them all take a leaf out of OFFF’s books and make conferences approachable for all!

]]> By: Phillip Kerman http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6286 Phillip Kerman Sun, 22 Oct 2006 04:03:40 +0000 http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6286 Maybe their name is "anon"? I love this: Next year, if no one from Adobe gets paid during Max and they have to pay their own way and expenses, I’ll be happy to go and speak under the same terms. Maybe their name is “anon”?

I love this:

Next year, if no one from Adobe gets paid during Max and they have to pay their own way and expenses, I’ll be happy to go and speak under the same terms.

]]> By: LEE http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6285 LEE Sun, 22 Oct 2006 04:02:46 +0000 http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6285 Interesting, hard to imagine no profit is made by Adobe...perhaps it's just bad financial management...in that case I would rather attend a conference in a grassy field if that means the speakers I've come to see are in the very least, not paying to come talk to me. Between the $$$ from paid registered attendee's, and sponsors, Adobe fails to make any money from these events? wth? I'm not so naive. Interesting, hard to imagine no profit is made by Adobe…perhaps it’s just bad financial management…in that case I would rather attend a conference in a grassy field if that means the speakers I’ve come to see are in the very least, not paying to come talk to me.

Between the $$$ from paid registered attendee’s, and sponsors, Adobe fails to make any money from these events? wth? I’m not so naive.

]]> By: aral http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6262 aral Sat, 21 Oct 2006 21:47:13 +0000 http://aralbalkan.com/778#comment-6262 Hi Anon, I wish they had! I'll definitely know to ask for more next time! :P <blockquote>Your post is like the pope bitch to the people about priest salary.</blockquote> No, it's more like you asking for your paycheck after doing some work. It's actually a concept that most of the world doesn't have a big problem understanding. It just seems that our industry seems to expect certain people to work for free. That said, I'm a fair man. Next year, if no one from Adobe gets paid during Max and they have to pay their own way and expenses, I'll be happy to go and speak under the same terms. Fair enough? By the way, long standing readers of my blog know that I really hate anonymous posters. It's just something about how pitiful it is for a person to have to hide his or her identity and not be able to stand by their words that makes me feel sad for them. Then again, freedom of speech and all that so keep posting anonymously if you like. A backbone is not required to comment on this blog :) Hi Anon, I wish they had! I’ll definitely know to ask for more next time! :P

Your post is like the pope bitch to the people about priest salary.

No, it’s more like you asking for your paycheck after doing some work. It’s actually a concept that most of the world doesn’t have a big problem understanding. It just seems that our industry seems to expect certain people to work for free.

That said, I’m a fair man. Next year, if no one from Adobe gets paid during Max and they have to pay their own way and expenses, I’ll be happy to go and speak under the same terms. Fair enough?

By the way, long standing readers of my blog know that I really hate anonymous posters. It’s just something about how pitiful it is for a person to have to hide his or her identity and not be able to stand by their words that makes me feel sad for them. Then again, freedom of speech and all that so keep posting anonymously if you like. A backbone is not required to comment on this blog :)

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