The patent appears to be specifically about the sort of service that the -- now aged and somewhat pitiable -- Balthaser.com provides. In other words, a web-based application for building web applications.
In my reading of it, the patent appears to very specifically target a certain type of application. In the abstract alone it states that the patent pertains to: "A host computer system, containing processes for creating rich-media applications, [that] is accessed from a remote user computer system via an Internet connection. User account information and rich-media component specifications are uploaded via the established Internet connection for a specific user account. Rich-media applications are created, deleted, or modified in a user account via the established Internet connection. Rich-media components are added to, modified in, or deleted from scenes of a rich-media application based on information contained in user requests. After creation, the rich-media application is viewed or saved on the host computer system, or downloaded to the user computer system via the established Internet connection."
So not all Rich Internet Applications, because not all web applications are created via other web applications/tools like Balthaser's so-called Pro:Fx.
Nevertheless it appears that Neil Balthaser at least wants to try to use his patent to bleed RIA developers dry -- some of whom have been building RIAs for longer than he has. What a wonderful man! I wonder if he has an Amazon wishlist somewhere?..
A short-term solution might include voting with our dollars to make sure that we don't finance Balthaser's efforts by using his service (is anyone using his services currently? I'd love to hear from you -- and whether or not you'll continue using them. Please feel free to use the comments to let me know.) A longer-term goal might be to start gathering prior art. Perhaps we can start doing this on the OSFlash wiki.
I know that Branden was building RIAs prior to/during 2001 (when this patent was filed) as he was the main Flash architect behind the K12 Virtual School that we built at that time. This was a huge RIA (and my first.) The content for it alone took a whole day to offline generate at the time (remember Generator? It was built using Flash 5 and has since been updated and upgraded by my dear friend Charlie Cordova, myself and others and, although I haven't been involved with it in the longest time, I hear that it is still going strong (and they *still* haven't fixed that hairline border issue around the app -- grrr!.. I was bitching about that more than five years ago guys!)
Software patents in general are a farce and I hope with all my heart that the EU will not bow to the tremendous pressure being put on it by the US at the moment to implement them over here. Regardless of what happens, and regardless of my understanding that this patent does *not* apply to all RIAs, I still believe that we, as a community, need to stand firm against this claim.
Oh yes, and funnily enough, Neil Balthaser apparently used to work for Macromedia as a "VP of Flash Strategy".
Not cool at all.
Does anyone else think that we're witnessing Neil Balthaser pull a Ray Horn?
The The Balthaser Greed? article by Aral Balkan, unless otherwise expressly stated, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 2.0 UK: England License.
Hahaha this is too funny for words… Well lets start at the top shall we
I know for a fact that while Dave Williamson and myself were part of Spooky and the Bandit we developed at least 2 of these ’site building site’ style web applications. The most advanced one was called Casper (1998 - 2003).
However from a more commercially comparible perspective what about Moonfruit? http://www.moonfruit.com/ They launched their product around late 1998 / early 1999 (and Macromedia were an investor if my memory serves me correctly on all points)
So For Neil to try this he’s going to have a hard time getting any further. I remember when he first posted about it - when it was still under the Balthaser.com site under the monicker of Balthaser|FX. This finally morphed into the ‘profx’ site and the product currently living there (obviously development has progressed but…).
L8rs
Mike
“Pull a Ray Horn” - I like that, I think I’ll start using that more often.
This truly is incredible. Funny beyond belief. As mike has commented earlier we were constructing stuff like the ProFX site well before it went live. In fact i remember having email conversations with balthazer, and a number of others that seemed to be producing ‘engines’ like the proFX one while we were building ‘Casper’ and its forerunners. Feel free to decompile it, you will see that there are coding conventions from flash 3 (circa 1998) right through to flash MX included in that work.
I also remember that at flash forward 2000 there was an RIA by TinToon that created little flash cartoons using generator. Come to think of it, doesn’t Generator itself fall foul of this patent.
All of which beggars the question how much did Balthaser LIE in the prior/existing art section of the patent submission??
The gall of some people really does amaze me.
Dave aka (oldskoolflash, it used to be ironic, now its fact.
)
I just had a quick look at that site and it looks like trying to patient a web-based version of the Flash IDE.
It seems i messed up the URL some how. should go to
http://casper.bittube.com
thx
Hi Mike, Dave, thanks for the insightful comments. I just set up a page on OSFlash where we can compile such info. I’m going to make a short blog post about it after I finish this comment.
Kit: Yes, that is basically the type of app the patent appears to pertain to.
Darron: LOL! Yeah, I’m taking it to mean “commit social suicide by repeatedly putting your foot in your mouth in a very public manner”
BS! I worked on a Flash content development system back when Flash 4 and Generator first hit. Granted it was an internal tool for a fortune 500 company but it was long before Balthaser released their app!
As a community we need to do whatever we can to stand up and fight against efforts like this.
-erik
Anyone else find some irony in the fact that this came out the same day that google release pages.google.com?
Maybe Micro$oft will sue google for copywrite infringement on FrontPage?!
Jolyon
Wow, I still think I have some content that Neil did as a promo piece for a bank I was working at back in late 1999 early 2000. He had this one piece everyone liked and the CEO of the bank USABancshares really liked it, and had Neil do a similar piece exactly like it for us, except with the banks logo - if i can find it I’ll post it up somewhere.
This was also ironically the same time that we were working really closely with Macromedia on the first and second releases of Generator and Flash 4 for an all Flash online banking site http://broadband.usabancshares.com/ (been down for a couple years now) - we launched it in mid 2000 prior to FlashForward NY that year, and at the following one in San Fran we won the ecommerce award for it in the filmfestival. I tend to agree with Keith and Aral, that some of this is really close to what Generator did, and in fact thats how the banking site worked. We created templates and uploaded them, and at run time based on what users selected and did it created a multimedia experience for the end user online. I definitely consider this prior art, I think a ton of Generator apps, and JGenerator apps would be considered prior art. We didnt just generate Flash either, we used the other capabilities of Generator output quicktime movies, and jpegs, etc. There is lots of stuff out there that I think could challenge this.
The last studio I worked at in Philly, I worked on the backend and administration tools for a similar Flash based content/web site creation tool called MyPinwheel - http://www.mypinwheel.com/ - which is similar but not exactly the same as what Neil offers and has apparently patented. Haven’t touched it on over 5 months since I left so not sure what they are doing with it any longer, but I would think this is the kind of app that Neil is really trying to protect against, something that allows you to create things online through a process, but the statements in the CNET article lead you to believe he is gonna try and collect license fees from anything even close….sounds crazy to me.
I do think it is ironic the press release came out the same day google announced pages.google.com - good point Jolyon.
The first RIA created using Flash I experienced was from a furniture company website back in 97. I think it was furniture.com, but can’t be sure now. The application was very much similiar to today’s Jordan’s Room Planner RIA. They designed a Flashed based application to allow users to create their own interior design and save it as Flash templates for later on viewing purposes. The application was built on Flash 3 technology.
I am an entrepreneur that is familiar with software patents and CLAIMS.
The claims of Patent 7,000,180 only covers web-site creation over the Internet (”users to create and maintain a rich-media application on said host website via the Internet”)
Regardless if he was the inventor of the 1 type of this application (and that was novel and nonobvious), and has merit for that; his claims only cover that specific application.
If it is true that Neil Balthaser is saying that his patent covers every RIA, he is plain wrong.
Recently I’m planning on an online Flash project (some like CMS but not limit) which could create contents both online and .NET desktop application, is that covered by his patent?
Hi George,
I’m not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. However, on my layman’s reading of it, I believe it would be covered if the patent is upheld. And CMS/online app customization appears to be covered. Of course, according to Balthaser’s interpretation it also includes all RIAs and quite possibly the earth, seas and sky too
Thanks. I think we could wait and see the answer from Adobe, they need a million developers for Flex 2 so they have to make the sky clear first.
I have started a petition about this Balthaser thing. Please visit and sign it.
http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/balthaser
Thanks!
Sean Gates
It’s June, has anything else happened with this yet?
Hey Aral, thought i would let you know the USPO have altered the link to this Patent. I have recently been contacted about it so was re-visiting the information.
New link to Balthaser patent.
Thanks, Dave. I just edited your comment to format the link better.
i think we should only find a gap in this patent, so we just take advantage of it until we make Balthesar understand that he should NOT try to take advantage of other colleagues.
Well, I actually do not know where to start. I “discovered” balthaser back in 2001. I was naive, and very much a novice with regards to the internet at that time. Still, I had no idea about the impending, lackluster experience I would have-and even jeopardize my business because of it. His website at the time seemed so cool; it was modern, full of jazz and pretty much the only site I had seen with so many amazing options (things that require a long and tedious process of learning), but I figured them out and created a reasonable reflection of my company.
I would invite you to view my website, but because I had a delay in payment (approximately 2 weeks), they completely disabled my site, and my email. I have invested my time and my money both with outside marketing and balthaser; only to discover that my patronage of his business means nothing to him. I have continuously struggled to get good service from his representatives, and with every problem that I encountered with the software, it was very apparent that it was simply “user” error and nothing more. I will give them this, but you should never make the customer feel as if they are doing something wrong! Education is one thing, being brutal is another.
I am now at a loss, because this last act on their part (temporarily disconnecting my account), is utterly shocking and completely disappointing. I have been with balthaser since August-and I can only say that the indifference displayed by this company only serves to reinforce my decision to move my website. Here is the problem: Balthaser purchases the domains for his customers and locks them. Now I can not transfer a domain that I own, because of his deceitful and malicious actions. By business depends in part on my website for communications and I must have access to my email. I am deeply troubled by this situation and I can only say that my once positive viewpoint about Balthaser has now been replaced by one of dismay and extremem dis-appointment.
I hope that for all those who may consider using the Balthaser product, that they will be able to learn from my lesson; as painful as it is getting and stay as far away from Balthaser as possible. I wish I could undo the investment, time, and heartache I have experienced with this company (Pro/Fx), but maybe I can prevent others from going through the same thing. He has taken my time, my money, and my trust and treated me as nothing more than some poor fool who he has no need of.
I came across your information at http://www.mamma.com when I typed in his name: neil balthaser; I was so frustrated I just wanted to know if there was somebody that could actually hold him accountable. The only way to stop him is to tell the world about him and his indifference towards customers. I was shocked at first to hear you write that you thought his site was far behind the times, but now, I can see that it is clearly his perspective with regards to social global service and profitability. He will never achieve ultimate success if he is able to dismiss the needs of even one of his customers. Perhaps he feels that we are locked into something with his company; but I feel that the sacrifice would be better than the nausea one feels when ever any type of possibly negative situation arises.
Thank you for being here; and for helping me to gain some perspective on this company and the man behind it. If only I had known from the beginning.
Sincerely,
Michael Saint Germaine
I had to give you an alternate email address; because my email has been disabled. Again, the wonderful level of service I have recieved from Balthaser.com
Well I’ve been around since the rise and rise of Microsoft, Directed, Change Managed and led some world leading technology and organisation projects in ecommerce and online content, crm etc. as well as restructuring organisations and commuities in UK Asia and Australia.
I also design lots of things and this early days included web and multi-media as well as arts, photography clothing, music, etc.
But I came across Balthaser when I was seeking an easy means to have website and maintain while I held an international nomadic lifestyle with my charity work.
It wasn’t easy because some of the remote places I visited (jungles, war zones etc) did not facilitate me carrying with me even a notebook computer - so it was back to base camp to work on web site stuff and a trip to singapore, Malaysia or somewhere there was enough bandwidth and more than a 56K modem available now and then. I worked with television and international satellite as well - but with my own small world projects in suffering and poverty - there was not much available.
So I opted for an online means of developing for this reason. And because of my work it wasn’t easy to always be where I needed nor to always pay the bill - as my consulting work basically paid for my humanitarian work - I would consult in the first world and take that money and myself into third world or work on the projects - which of course were funded by me and no government or charity organisation.
I write this because Mr St Germain and you yourself Aral talk about Neil’s greed and how malicious his company is. Well, my work has taken its toll on my physical body - lots of conflict trauma, hard rides in local transport and rugged terrain and living on the edge travelling for 14 years or so in service of others has rendered me with a serious illness. There were times I collapsed and was crippled - Balthaser kept my website for me and did not destroy it. I was often sabotaged etc., and my patience wore thin - but one thing I can say is that the service from Samantha and Balthaser was really positive - they did take me offline once - but that was after 3-4 mths of no contact (they probably thought I was dead that time) but they saved my accounts for me and I was able to reinstate. I also know that if I want to transfer my domain name - I simply have to ask them to relinquish it after I have paid my account for the month (they don’t hold yearly contracts) and also - if I simply want to build and host elsewhere they provide even simple instructions on how to publish and pack - so there is no lock in. I am also comfortable with legal compliance (I have worked significantly with data protection act over the years).
What I don’t like is the restrictions to my design creativity and some of the usability in the simple design tool is lacking - but that’s par for the course. I have workedwith thousands of users over the years to understand cognition and usability - but when it comes to applying this to my own domain - I’m a bit lax and whacky - perhaps Neil is the same.
All I can say - in my instance there has been no greed - and they have been a welcom interlude in some bleak situations with their positive customer service and attitude. Plus Samantha always looks for a solution and takes the time to explain. I think they are a great help desk and service. Most places these days hardly give any support at all.
As for patents - well no legal mandate is going to allow a patent to pass for something that is not original - thats what patents are all about. So it has been up to Neil to prove that he has a specific niche in the Rich Media arena. If he can’t he wont get the patent. If anyone else wants to file a patent also and prove their own specific area that is original in Rich Media - then they can do this also. If you are really worried - I would encourage you to do this.
Bottom line is nothing in this world really belongs to any one man or woman - and no one can take it with them -so why spend so much energy on protecting it when you could be out in the sun, with your friends and family. Life is short.